0001
1 INDEX
PAGE
2
I
Call to Order
2
3
II
Consideration of Minutes.
2
4
A. March 29, 2001
B. April 25, 2001
5
C. May 4, 2001
D. May 30, 2001
6
III
Consideration of Hearing Officer
7
Recommendations.
E. Jerald V. Hall
8
1. Resolution No. 01-053
4
F. Dana Quintanilla
9
2. Resolution No. 01-054
6
10 IV
Consideration of Relicensure of
Suppliers.
11 Presentation of Lt. Wilhoit. 11
G.
Midwest Game Supply Company
12 1.
Resolution No. 01-055
12
H. Shuffle Master, Inc.
13 2.
Resolution No. 01-056
14
I. WMS Gaming, Inc.
14 3.
Resolution No. 01-057
15
15 V
Consideration of Licensure of
Class A. Licensee
16 Mark Twain Casino
Presentation of Larry
Seckington 16 & 65
17 City of LaGrange
Presentation of Mayor Ludwig 19
18 Public Comment.
Investigative Recommendation
19 Presentation of Sheriff
Parrish 23
Presentation of Mr. DeCoster 29
20 Presentation of Chief Baker 42
Presentation of Cpl. Kathy
Broderick 49
21 Presentation of Mr. Boyle 53
Presentation of Mr. Yaeger 56
22 J. Mark Twain Casino, L.L.C.
1. Resolution No. 01-058
62
23
VI
Consideration of Level I/Key Applicants
24 K. Resolution No. 01-059 64
25
0002
1 CHAIRMAN ULLERY:
Before we call the
2
roll and before we get official, I want to apologize
3 to
you that have been hassled by one of the
4
commissioners going around here taking pictures. I
5
have no idea what's going on.
6 COMMISSIONER SMITH: This is a historic
7
occasion.
8 CHAIRMAN ULLERY:
He says that this is a
9
historic occasion. So we'll drop
it at that. It
10 probably is.
11 Angie, will you call the roll?
12 MS. FRANKS: Chairman Ullery.
13 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: Present.
14 MS. FRANKS: Commissioner Smith.
15 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Present.
16 MS. FRANKS:
Commissioner Nikolaisen.
17 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: Present.
18 MS. FRANKS: Commissioner Battle.
19 COMMISSIONER BATTLE: Present.
20 MS. FRANKS: Commissioner Adorjan.
21 (No response.)
22 MR. MULLALLY: Mr. Chairman, the first
23 item on the agenda is the consideration of
the
24 approval of four different sets of minutes
contained
25 in Tabs A through D in your book.
0003
1 COMMISSIONER SMITH: The only question I
2
have, I didn't realize we were so long winded. Trying
3 to
read all these minutes.
4 MR. MULLALLY:
The legal staff really
5
enjoys going through all these, but they have
6
reviewed them, and I don't believe we have any
7
suggested corrections.
8 CHAIRMAN ULLERY:
Do any of the
9
commissioners have any corrections to any of the four?
10 COMMISSIONER SMITH: I thought they were
11 well done.
12 COMMISSIONER BATTLE: They were very
13 complete.
14 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: I just wish I
15 was more articulate.
16 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: Apparently we have no
17 objections. I will consider a motion to approve the
18 minutes of March 29th, 2001, April 25th,
May 4th and
19 May 30th, 2001.
20 COMMISSIONER BATTLE: I move approval.
21 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: Second.
22 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: We have motion, we
23 have a second. Angie.
24 MS. FRANKS: Chairman Ullery.
25 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: In favor.
0004
1 MS. FRANKS:
Commissioner Smith.
2 COMMISSIONER SMITH: In favor.
3 MS. FRANKS:
Commissioner Nikolaisen.
4 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: In favor.
5 MS. FRANKS:
Commissioner Battle.
6 COMMISSIONER BATTLE: In favor.
7 MS. FRANKS:
By your vote, you have
8
adopted the minutes of the March 29th, 2001 meeting,
9
April 25th, 2001 meeting, May 4th, 2001 meeting and
10 May 30th, 2001 meeting.
11 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: Thank you.
12 MR. MULLALLY: Mr. Chairman, under Tabs
13 E and F are two hearing officer
recommendations.
14 Unfortunately, Hearing Officer Mike Yost is
unable to
15 be here today, but I believe the record is
16 sufficiently clear that if you would like
to discuss
17 them, take the appropriate action.
18 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: I would like to
19 discuss these, and I would ask comments
from the
20 commissioners. If we have any specific questions
21 we'll table that until such time as the
hearing
22 officer can be here.
23 Reference Resolution
01-053. Have you
24 had a chance to review those?
25 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Mr. Chairman, the
0005
1
only question I had is, it would seem to me that the
2
penalty was a little mild for flagrant violations.
3 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: I was going to
4
ask the same question. Had that
been in line with
5
what we have been doing? I don't
know if anybody
6
here can answer that.
7 MR.
MULLALLY: Yes, I believe that the
8
penalty is consistent with what we have done for this
9
type of offense with other Level 2 licensees.
10 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: Seems to me like about
11 three months ago we had a very similar
case, and I
12 can't be specific about it, that we went to
56, but
13 I'm not sure on that.
14 If you would like, we can
table it and
15 ask the hearing officer to have it come up.
16 Do I have a motion to approve
or motion
17 to table?
18 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: I move to
19 approve.
20 COMMISSIONER BATTLE: I will second it.
21 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: We have a motion, we
22 have a second to approve Resolution 01-053. Angie.
23 MS. FRANKS: Chairman Ullery.
24 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: In favor.
25 MS. FRANKS: Commissioner Smith.
0006
1 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Opposed.
2 MS. FRANKS:
Commissioner Nikolaisen.
3 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: In favor.
4 MS. FRANKS:
Commissioner Battle.
5 COMMISSIONER BATTLE: In favor.
6 MS. FRANKS:
By your vote, you have
7
adopted Resolution 01-053.
8 CHAIRMAN ULLERY:
We have before us now
9
the same situation, I believe.
Resolution 01-054.
10 And again, the hearing officer, the same
hearing
11 officer, Mr. Yost. And we have here the decree is to
12 deny an operational license. Have you had a chance
13 to review that?
14 COMMISSIONER SMITH: The only question
15 here is why did she appeal it.
16 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: I'm not sure that Mr.
17 Yost could answer that, Mr. Smith, do you?
18 COMMISSIONER SMITH: No.
19 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: Why she appealed it,
20 because if I remember right, she did not
appear; is
21 that correct?
22 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: Right.
23 COMMISSIONER SMITH:
I move approval of
24 the recommendation under 01-054.
25 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: I second it.
0007
1 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: I have a motion, I have
2 a
second on Resolution 01-054.
3 Angie, call the roll, please.
4 MS. FRANKS:
Chairman Ullery.
5 CHAIRMAN ULLERY:
In favor.
6 MS. FRANKS:
Commissioner Smith.
7 COMMISSIONER SMITH: In favor.
8 MS.
FRANKS: Commissioner Nikolaisen.
9 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: In favor.
10 MS. FRANKS: Commissioner Battle.
11 COMMISSIONER BATTLE: In favor.
12 MS. FRANKS: By your vote, you have
13 adopted Resolution 01-054.
14 MR. MULLALLY: One of the issues that we
15 are looking at internally, and it may be
appropriate
16 to get your thoughts on, is to whether
there ought to
17 be some form of monetary penalty for those
people who
18 request a hearing and then fail to
appear. You know,
19 we incur significant costs in conducting
these
20 hearings.
We have to pay the court reporter; a great
21 deal of our staff time is devoted to
oftentimes
22 traveling to Kansas City or St. Louis; you
have the
23 Assistant Attorney General there; and then
you have
24 to pay the hearing officer. And when they don't
25 show, all that is for naught. The lawyers are kind
0008
1 of
looking at whether there are some constitutional
2
issues that may be involved there.
But it happens
3
with sufficient frequency that it has caught our
4
attention.
5 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: I think after
6
this time it caught mine too. I
don't know what you
7
would call it, if it's a penalty, if it's just a
8
recovery of costs.
9 MR. MULLALLY:
That's what we are
10 thinking.
11 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: As long as
12 it's constitutionally --
13 COMMISSIONER BATTLE:
I think cost is
14 reasonable, if you would look into it and
see --
15 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: We have looked
16 into it. It's wrong. It's constant, request a hearing,
17 then no show.
18 COMMISSIONER SMITH:
How would you
19 collect in a situation like this?
20 MR. MULLALLY: Well,, you know --
21 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: That's part of
22 the research too.
23 MR. MULLALLY: Part of it will depend on
24 whether they have been revoked or not. Certainly if
25 it's simply a discipline, if you're
suspending them
0009
1
for a few hours, you have pretty good leverage to
2
collect.
3 COMMISSIONER SMITH: In this case it's a
4
denial.
5 MR. MULLALLY:
It's a denial, yes. Many
6
times it's not a denial, it's a suspension, and they
7
request a hearing and they don't show up.
8 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: I think we
9
would have to alert someone up front that if you
10 request a hearing and you fail to show, you
know,
11 without proper cause, you will be assessed
some sort
12 of cost recovery. You know, part of me says that's
13 fair; the other part of me says are we
violating
14 their right to a hearing, you know. Or would that in
15 their mind say, well, just in case I don't
make it, I
16 won't even bother to appeal, you know. It's their
17 right to come tell their side of the story.
18 MR. MULLALLY: It's one of those
19 situations where it's not a denial of
fairness,
20 because I was -- I mean I know because I
was the
21 Commission's first hearing officer. I don't think
22 any of you were on the commission at the
time, but
23 one of the practices I started was that,
you know, we
24 were very liberal in granting continuances,
if they
25 showed up and they didn't have an attorney,
we would
0010
1
allow the hearing to be continued until they had an
2
attorney. And that practice has
generally been
3
continued by all of the other hearing officers. They
4
have been very fair with these people, it's not a
5
heavy-handed process. It's just
very frustrating, I
6
know as a hearing officer, when you schedule a docket
7
and then you have two or three people don't show up,
8
you're essentially just sitting around waiting for
9
the one you scheduled later in the day.
So you've
10 got a lot of professional people paying,
you know,
11 substantial salaries doing nothing.
12 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: I think it's
13 worth considering and looking into, and
coming up
14 with a suggestion.
15 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: I would agree with
16 that.
I would also like to see if it's practical,
17 how many no shows have we had in the last
say year or
18 whatever time element would give us a good
feel.
19 MR. MULLALLY: Angie, do you have an idea?
20 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: I don't need to know
21 now.
22 MR. MULLALLY: We can get you that.
23 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: When it's brought back
24 before us I think we need to look at that.
25 MR. MULLALLY: It's not an
0011
1
inconsequential number. It's
more than a half dozen.
2 CHAIRMAN ULLERY:
I would certainly --
3 at
least at this stage of the game, I think if in
4
fact we establish this, I think there should -- maybe
5
there should be a set fee and so on, so forth, so
6
there is no question, and certain guidelines, you
7
know, if you notify us so much ahead of time or
8
whatever. Whatever makes it fair
for the public. So
9
our legal staff can take a look into that; right?
10 MR. MULLALLY: Kind of like canceling
11 your hotel room, you have to call by noon.
12 COMMISSIONER SMITH: There are two
13 sides, one is the waste of time, as you
point out, of
14 the staff.
The other side is I have been in areas
15 where somebody felt they can't appeal
because of the
16 risk and cost.
17 MR. MULLALLY: Sure.
Mr. Chairman, the
18 next item on the agenda is consideration of
19 relicensure of suppliers. Lt. Rick Wilhoit will make
20 presentation on behalf of the staff.
21 LT. WILHOIT: Good morning. Mr.
22 Chairman, Commissioners, background
investigations,
23 to include criminal history checks and tax
reviews of
24 the following suppliers and their
respective key
25 persons have been conducted in conjunction
with the
0012
1
relicensing. As a result of the
investigations, the
2
following suppliers have been found suitable for
3
relicensing by the Commission.
Midwest Game Supply
4
Company, Shuffle Master, Inc., and WMS Gaming, Inc.
5 CHAIRMAN ULLERY:
Does anybody have any
6
questions?
7 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: We probably
8
need to do these separately.
9 MR. MULLALLY:
That's correct.
10 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: Absolutely.
I have
11 been burned about three times on this
now. First of
12 all, do I have any comment, suggestions or
a motion
13 on resolution No. 01-055?
14 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: I move for
15 approval.
16 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Second.
17 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: I have a motion and a
18 second on Resolution 01-055.
19 COMMISSIONER SMITH: I just want to make
20 a comment that since we are up in a new
location
21 maybe it might be good just briefly to
state what you
22 do to investigate these, so the public will
know how
23 you go about it.
24 LT. WILHOIT: On a relicensing?
25 COMMISSIONER SMITH:
Sure.
0013
1 LT. WILHOIT:
We go back and check the
2
tax, the state tax and federal income tax submissions
3
for the companies. And then we
relook at the
4
individuals, and make sure that they haven't incurred
5
any types of character or criminal issues since their
6
last licensing.
7 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Okay.
8 CHAIRMAN ULLERY:
Just another mini
9
background, is it not?
10 LT. WILHOIT: Yes.
11 MR. MULLALLY: Any other regulatory
12 bodies too.
13 LT. WILHOIT: Yes, any other regulatory
14 bodies too.
15 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: There is also
16 a financial check.
17 LT. WILHOIT: Well,
the financial check
18 in the relicensing is pretty minimal.
19 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: But I mean
20 there are some statements --
21 LT. WILHOIT: Yes.
22 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: -- making sure
23 they are still solvent basically.
24 LT. WILHOIT: Yes.
25 MR. MULLALLY: Jim Oberkirsch monitors
0014
1
all of these companies, not only our suppliers, but
2
the licensee companies and the applicants, frankly.
3
And any -- he does that on a monthly basis through
4
the SEC reports and those type of things and any
5
issues he sees he would forward to the
6
investigators. So if there are
potential
7
investigative issues, they would be monitored.
8 CHAIRMAN ULLERY:
We have before us
9
Resolution 01-055. We have a
motion, we have a
10 second.
11 Angie, would you call the
roll, please.
12 MS. FRANKS: Chairman Ullery.
13 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: In favor.
14 MS. FRANKS: Commissioner Smith.
15 COMMISSIONER SMITH: In favor.
16 MS. FRANKS: Commissioner Nikolaisen.
17 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: In favor.
18 MS. FRANKS: Commissioner Battle.
19 COMMISSIONER BATTLE: In favor.
20 MS. FRANKS: By your vote, you have
21 adopted Resolution 01-055.
22 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: I move for
23 adoption of Resolution 01-056.
24 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: Do I have a second or
25 comments?
0015
1 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Second it.
2 CHAIRMAN ULLERY:
I have a motion and I
3
have a second on Resolution 01-056.
4 Angie, call the roll.
5 MS. FRANKS:
Chairman Ullery.
6 CHAIRMAN ULLERY:
In favor.
7 MS. FRANKS:
Commissioner Smith.
8 COMMISSIONER SMITH: In favor.
9 MS. FRANKS:
Commissioner Nikolaisen.
10 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: In favor.
11 MS. FRANKS: Commissioner Battle.
12 COMMISSIONER BATTLE: In favor.
13 MS. FRANKS: By your vote, you have
14 adopted Resolution 01-056.
15 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: We have before us
16 Resolution 01-057.
17 COMMISSIONER BATTLE: I move in favor
18 second?
19 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: Second.
20 CHAIRMAN ULLERY:
I have a motion and I
21 have a second.
22 Angie, call the roll.
23 MS. FRANKS: Chairman Ullery.
24 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: In favor.
25 MS. FRANKS: Commissioner Smith.
0016
1 COMMISSIONER SMITH: In favor.
2 MS. FRANKS:
Commissioner Nikolaisen.
3 COMMISSIONER NIKOLAISEN: In favor.
4 MS. FRANKS:
Commissioner Battle.
5 COMMISSIONER BATTLE: In favor.
6 MS. FRANKS:
By your vote, you have
7
adopted Resolution 01-057.
8 CHAIRMAN ULLERY:
Thank you, Rick.
9 MR. MULLALLY:
Mr. Chairman, the next
10 item on the agenda is the consideration of
licensure
11 of Class A licensee. The applicant is the Mark Twain
12 Casino.
They completed their final exercise
13 yesterday with the practice gaming session,
and in
14 the order of business here, the first item
would be a
15 presentation from the company. I believe Mr. Bill
16 Grace is here, and Larry Seckington, to
make a
17 presentation for the company.
18 MR. SECKINGTON: Mr. Chairman,
19 Commissioners: My name is Larry Seckington
with Mark
20 Twain Casino. As Mr. Mullally stated, yesterday we
21 completed the shakedown practice
sessions. The
22 company I believe has now performed all of
the
23 matters that were required to obtain a
Class A
24 license.
The company has completed the
25 infrastructure with the city. I know there is still
0017
1 an
outstanding question with the county, but we
2
believe that the police infrastructure is adequate
3
now to protect the public safety.
We have gone
4
through the final checklist from the Gaming
5
Commission and submitted all documents.
We have done
6
three practice sessions internally and then completed
7
successfully I think yesterday with the commission.
8 I
would like to take this opportunity to thank Mr.
9
Johnson, Mr. Buschjost, Mr. Greeno.
They have spent
10 a lot of time in our facility over the last
couple of
11 weeks, where we have done some intensive
training
12 under their guidance and tutelage, and we
really
13 appreciate the staff's commitment to this
location.
14 We believe that the issuance of a license
today is
15 appropriate as an economic development tool
for the
16 Northeast Missouri area, and the City of
LaGrange.
17 We believe that we'll be a good corporate
citizen up
18 here, and hopefully make the Commission
proud of this
19 decision to locate a boat here.
20 I would be happy to answer any
questions
21 the Commissioners might have.
22 COMMISSIONER BATTLE: I would like to go
23 on record as commending the staff yesterday
for their
24 hospitality and efficiency, and making sure
that the
25 consumer realized what they were having to
do to be
0018
1
efficient. So I would like to
commend them.
2
MR. SECKINGTON: Thank you very much.
3 As
we have told the Commission before, we are very
4
proud of the employees that we have been able to hire
5
here. We had approximately 325
employees on the
6
payroll. About half of those folks
are from
7
Missouri, about half from Illinois.
But when we
8
first did our job fair up here we had three hundred
9 or
so openings, and we had applicants, over 700
10 applicants for the job. They are a very enthusiastic
11 and very competent group, we believe, and
we
12 certainly hope that the customer service
orientation
13 that was shown yesterday continues for the
life of
14 the company.
15 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: Any other questions
16 for Mr. Seckington?
17 COMMISSIONER SMITH: What percentage of
18 your patrons do you think will come from
the state of
19 Illinois?
Do you have any projections on that.
20 MR. SECKINGTON: The projections that we
21 have, Commissioner, are, from the Illinois
and Iowa
22 markets will be 50% or more. So we believe that
23 we'll be very successful in attracting
people from
24 Quincy and Keokuk area.
25 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: Any other questions?
0019
1
Thank you.
2 MR. SECKINGTON:
Thank you very much.
3 MR. GRACE:
On behalf of the owners, Mr.
4
Ward Sauvage and myself, and Ward is here, those of
5
you who don't know him, we are very glad to be here.
6 We
are very proud of the relationship we had with the
7
community. We think it's going
fine. We like our
8
facility. We are delighted with
the staff we have
9
hired, and the Commission has done a tremendous job
10 of working with us in preparation for opening,
and we
11 look forward to your positive vote. Thank you very
12 much.
13 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: How are you doing with
14 the County.
15 MR. GRACE: That's the city's
16 responsibility. I will let others respond to that.
17 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: Thank you, Mr. Grace.
18 We appreciate it.
19 MR. MULLALLY: Mr. Chairman, at this
20 time we would like to hear from the City of
21 LaGrange.
I believe the Mayor is here.
22 MAYOR LUDWIG:
Thank you for the
23 opportunity to speak to you folks. First off, I
24 would like to welcome the Commission and
Mark Twain
25 Casino for being in LaGrange. We feel it's a
0020
1
privilege for you people to be here, and we are
2
looking forward to what is about to happen to
3
LaGrange.
4 As far as the infrastructure that is
5
going on, we feel that right now we are comfortable
6
with it. I won't say that we are
satisfied, but we
7
are comfortable. We are still
working on police
8
protection. We feel it is
adequate at this time, but
9 we
still are looking and searching for more officers.
10 We have five interviews tomorrow
night. Out of these
11 five, I can't say that there will be five
hired. We
12 don't feel that just because they put in an
13 application, that we should hire them. We want good
14 qualified people in town.
15 We feel that up to this point,
we have
16 had a real good working relationship with
Mark Twain
17 Casino.
There has not been any major problems.
The
18 problems that has arisen has been taken
care of
19 immediately through their cooperation and
ours. We
20 have had a good relationship with the construction
21 crews that has been in town. And we just feel like
22 that this is going to be one of the most
exciting
23 things that's happened to LaGrange in the
61 years
24 that I have been here. There has been some other
25 things that's went on, but to me, this is
the most
0021
1
exciting, and we are very much looking forward to
2
what can take place and what is going to take place.
3 We will continue to work towards the
4
infrastructure of LaGrange. It's
not something that
5 is
being completed overnight. We know it
can't be,
6
but we are continually working towards that goal.
7 And again, I thank you people and
8
welcome you to the City of LaGrange.
9 CHAIRMAN ULLERY:
Do you have any
10 questions for the Mayor.
11 COMMISSIONER SMITH: What plans do you
12 have for the use of the funds that you'll
derive from
13 the boat?
14 MAYOR LUDWIG: Well, to really tell you,
15 we haven't set down. We've got some plans in
16 motion.
There is some things that we've got to
17 address that we are working on at this
time. That is
18 upgrading the sewer system that we
have. It's
19 adequate to take care of the problems, but
if there
20 is any more growth, then we foresee a
problem, so we
21 are addressing it. We have got a proposal in to DNR,
22 what is the most feasible to build. There is just a
23 lot of work that needs to be done in
LaGrange, but we
24 need to set down and see what the most
important
25 things are.
0022
1 CHAIRMAN ULLERY:
Any other questions?
2
Thank you, Mr. Mayor.
3 MR. MULLALLY:
Mr. Mayor, there is a
4
couple things that I think it would be important to
5
address: one, it's my understanding that you have
6
agreed to hire a city manager for LaGrange?
7 MAYOR LUDWIG:
An administrator.
8 MR. MULLALLY:
An administrator?
9 MAYOR LUDWIG:
Yes.
10 MR. MULLALLY: And also the city has
11 made a commitment to $25,000 for the county
12 prosecutor?
13 MAYOR LUDWIG: Yes, but we haven't heard
14 any response from that.
15 MR. MULLALLY: Okay.
But you have made
16 the offer.
17 MAYOR LUDWIG: Yes.
18 MR. MULLALLY: And also a police car for
19 the sheriff.
20 MAYOR LUDWIG: Yes.
21 CHAIRMAN ULLERY: I think you're on the
22 right track, Mr. Mayor. I appreciate that.
23 MAYOR LUDWIG: Thank you very